OFF THE WIRE
BY: Maureen Ryan
Source: tvsquad.com
Sonny Barger, a legendary member of the Hells Angel Motorcycle Club, has a cameo role in the Nov. 30 season finale of FX's biker drama 'Sons of Anarchy.'
Barger, a founding member of the Oakland chapter of the Hells Angels, plays a character called Lenny the Pimp, one of the founders of the Sons of Anarchy Motorcycle Club. Barger, who lives in Arizona these days, said in an interview that he's a big fan of the show.
"We watch it every week," Barger said. "It's a nice show and it seems like everyone likes it. But it's nowhere near my everyday life."
Below, Sutter talks at length about the third season of the show and about how Barger's appearance came about.
When he was doing research for 'Sons of Anarchy,' Sutter said he never approached Barger, whose colorful life and brushes with the law were frankly chronicled in his 2001 autobiography, 'Hell's Angel,' as well as countless news articles, magazine pieces and books.
Once the FX show was on the air, however, Sutter heard through friends in the Hells Angels that Barger was a fan. After getting to know Barger through those mutual friends, the 'SOA' creator began to consider Barger for the role of Lenny Janowitz, one of SAMCRO's nine founders.
[This paragraph has information about a scene in the finale. Skip to the next paragraph if you want to avoid it.] Barger filmed his scene, which takes place in a prison infirmary, a couple of months ago with Sutter, who plays Big Otto, another incarcerated member of the club. Lenny was locked up "for allegedly killing three ATF men, so he is in for good," Sutter said. "The scene came out great and he has a very dry sense of humor and we got play with that a little bit."
Barger said he enjoyed filming the scene, but the process took a few hours, mainly because the lines in the script were comedically tinged and everyone kept "breaking up." "We had to redo it a few times," he said.
Though he said that the show doesn't really reflect the life he's lived in an outlaw MC, Barger did say he wondered if Sutter had based the character of Gemma on his wife, Zee, who is, in Barger's words, "loyal. Very loyal."
Gemma wasn't based on anyone in particular, of course, but Sutter said that he appreciated the fact that most of the hardcore bikers he's come across enjoy the show and understand that it's a fictionalized version of their world.
"They completely get it -- they get that it is a TV show, and [Barger] totally understands the need for dramatization and the need for it to be bigger than life," Sutter noted. "But he appreciates the fact that we try to keep it real, he appreciates the fact that we try to paint the other side of the lifestyle -- that it's not all blood and guts, that it's ultimately about family and camaraderie."
This season, that camaraderie has come under intense pressure as the Sons traveled to Belfast, where they've been searching for Jax's kidnapped baby, Abel. Decades ago, Jax's father, Sons co-founder John Teller, set up gun-running connections between the club and the True IRA, but now those relationships have taken a serious turn for the worse. In last week's episode, Jax and other members of SAMCRO narrowly avoided death from a bomb that they suspect came from their one-time gun-dealing associate, Jimmy O'Phelan, who is in the middle of a power struggle with another True IRA faction.
In a wide-ranging interview, the transcript of which is below, Sutter discussed the divided reactions to the current season of 'SOA.' Though viewership for the drama remains relatively steady and 'Sons' is still a big hit for FX, the Belfast story line is not receiving the kind of near-universal accolades that Season 2 got.
The decision to expand the show's universe came from a desire not to simply repeat season 2, Sutter said, and he also thought it was time to delve deeper into the show's mythology and for Jax to learn more about his dead father, John Teller.
"I know it has been ambitious storytelling this year and perhaps there is a lot more narrative than there has been in previous seasons," Sutter noted. "If I go back to my hokey Shakespearean analogy, it's Act 2, and there is a lot of information. There is a lot big mythology that has to come out before the final act, but I felt like... this really was the season to do it."
"The point of this season, or some of the point for me, was the idea that these guys, when they get to Belfast, they're no longer in Charming. You know what I mean? They are they're little fish in a big pond and they're completely out of their depth," Sutter added. "The point of 'Turas' with that explosion was like, 'Holy [expletive] ... This is the level of violence we're stepping into. This is the world that we're living in now. We're not in Charming. We're not in control.'"
The Sons will remain in Belfast for the Nov. 9 and Nov. 16 episodes, but things in Charming will be far from settled when they return there in the Nov. 23 episode. "I think the next two episodes in Ireland will be incredibly emotional, especially for Jax and [they are] really going to completely snap his head around 180 degrees," Sutter said.
As for the season as a whole, "I think it's all going someplace and whether or not it will be satisfying or enough, I don't know, but again, it's really all landing on the mythology this year, so hopefully that will pay off," he added.
Below is an edited and slightly condensed transcript of my interview with Kurt Sutter. This interview assumes that you have seen up to the Nov. 2 episode of the show. There are no spoilers in the first three-quarters of the interview. There are very mild spoilers in the last section, but you will be warned before you get to that part.
Part 1: The Sonny-Sons connection.
MR: How did this come about -- having Sonny on the show? Was it something you had always had in mind to do on the show?
KS: Yeah, obviously I've always been intrigued by Sonny and his persona and we had a couple of [technical advisers] on the show who were members of outlaw clubs who knew Sonny, but I had never really approached him in terms of research for the show. Mainly because we were this little TV show and I just was sort of trying not to associate with anyone in terms of specificity, and also Sonny was attached to [a different] HBO show for a moment and then there was bad blood that happened there, so I just felt it was best if I just sort of stayed clear of it all. Then I found out through a couple of members of the Angels who are friends of mine that Sonny was a big fan of the show, and I ended up speaking with him on the phone.
[Later, Kurt went to a couple of Hell's Angel events that Sonny attended.] He is incredibly celebrated out there and I was sort of fascinated by how -- it was definitely a public day and he was tireless with shaking hands and signing autographs and signing copies of his book and he literally did not refuse anyone. [It was] nonstop for 8 to 10 hours, however long the day was. What was a little intimidating was that I got out there and [Sonny's wife] Zee had a bike and I got to ride her bike, but with her on the back, so there I am riding behind Sonny for the first time with his wife on the back of my bike, and I was just praying, "Oh God, please don't lay it down."
But I had a blast and he is an incredibly embracing guy and they're huge fans of the show. They completely get it -- they get that it is a TV show, he totally understands the need for dramatization and the need for it to be bigger than life, but he appreciates the fact that we try to keep it real, he appreciates the fact that we try to paint the other side of the lifestyle, that it's not all blood and guts -- that it's ultimately about family and camaraderie. There is a part of the motorcycle [world], what I call the poser community. It's all these guys that want to be outlaws and they're the guys that mostly have a problem with the show. But the guys that are in the life are comfortable enough to understand what we're doing and most of them dig the show and that was the case [with Sonny], to the point of talking about the show in great detail and the intricacies of the characters and where it's going. I got a couple of emails from [Sonny's wife] Zee in the last few weeks and they loved all the Ireland stuff.
So that is how the relationship grew and I had this notion [to get him on the show]. I knew there was always a member of the club, another member of the first nine [founders of the Sons of Anarchy Motorcycle Club] who was in jail and we hadn't met him yet. I don't know that we ever mentioned him [on the show], but I know in my initial mythology of the pilot, I list all the members of the Sons that are alive and Otto [Sutter's character, who is in prison] and Lenny the Pimp were two members that are incarcerated. So I always knew I had this other member [of SAMCRO in prison] and talked to Sonny about it and said, "Would you interested in doing a cameo?" and he was open to it.
MR: What is his character's name?
KS: It's Lenny Janowitz. His handle was Lenny the Pimp and he was part of the First Nine and he was incarcerated...The scene came out great and [Sonny] has a very dry sense of humor and we got play with that a little bit. And we wrote the character with the whole cancer of the larynx [situation] and so we played who he was and so I think it kind of works. [Barger had cancer in the '80s and after surgery on his larynx, he speaks using muscles in his throat.]
Part 2: The Season So Far
MR: So, having talked to you before the season started [my season 3 preview stories are here, here and here], I felt like I was kind of mentally prepared for this to be a different season. But that being said, there are some issues that people have brought up that I can't say I disagree with.
The way I would put it is, there is double-edged sword to what you've done in the first two seasons, which is create these characters that we really care about. Whatever choices they're making, we're invested them and we're interested in where they're going. This season, by essentially expanding the universe so much, with so many other characters and storylines and agendas, it just feels like it's harder to get emotionally invested in the characters' journeys, just because there is not that much time with Jax or other characters we're deeply invested in. It just feels like there is a lot of story and mythology to keep track of, and so it becomes a bit more of an intellectual than emotional experience for me.
KS: Right. I guess I get that. And my response is -- okay. Look, I don't subscribe to any formula. I understand why season 2 worked so well, because it was rather formulaic. It was very 'Shield'-like in its formula and I don't think that is a bad thing. It's just that I know quite honestly, creatively if I had to do that season after season it wouldn't be a very satisfying show for me.
Yeah, I think there are some... we reach maybe a little bit further intellectually this season in terms of people having to wrap their brains around bigger issues and some bigger themes. I still feel like, beyond that or perhaps as a result of that, I still think that the episodes themselves are incredibly satisfying and I don't feel like they're lacking for anything. But I do think that by taking them out of Charming, there is always that risk of bringing people into a new environment and having people wrap their brains around that.
I guess I felt like people had invested enough in the characters and the world that we would be able to sort of jump out of the pond, as it were, into a new environment and stay along for the ride. Did I know it was going to be a risk to do that? I guess so. Not to sound like I'm writing in a vacuum, but I can't begin my process each year by going, "What is going to make people happy?" Do you know what I mean?
MR: Of course.
KS: I really have to think in terms of, OK, where are we at and what have we earned and what kind of ride do we want to take them on? Hopefully people will stick around for the ride. My experience so far is that I think perhaps the casual viewer is struggling with this season. The viewer that may be tuned in every three or four episodes in the past might be struggling with it because it is a different environment and people are at a different place.
But my sense is that people that are invested in the show are really plugged into the season and in fact, I think are enjoying it more than any previous season. I know I made this comment [about men vs. women getting into the season] in terms of critics, but I wasn't commenting on viewership in terms of men or women. I'm getting just as many comments from men who are invested in the season as I am women. My Twitter comments were really just about ... there are about 10 critics whose reviews I actually read and out of those critics, it seemed to me that primarily it was the men who were struggling with the framework of the season being a little bit outside of the box. But in terms of viewership, our viewership has always been primarily men and we've been taking a little bit of hit in that, [and that's] mainly to do with sports, like we do every year at this time of year.
MR: Right. Well, I understand what you're saying and I certainly never wanted you to repeat last season. I think for me, what I always come to 'Sons' looking for, hoping for, is a visceral intensity of the action and even more than that, an intensity to the relationships and the characters. Like I said, I just think it's been harder this season and there have been some twists that just didn't compute for me. One of them concerned the priest. At the end of 'Lochan Mor,' we see that Abel is being taken home, presumably by an adoptive family and it just felt like yet another twist with Abel. And then I was confused -- does the priest even know about this? It was just a little bit hard for me to deal with.
KS: Well, I don't want to spoil anything, but hopefully by the time it all plays out it will make sense [NOTE from Mo: Part of this paragraph has been taken out because it's semi-spoilery. You can find this answer in its complete form at the end of this interview]. But I won't answer that because I think it's all going someplace and whether or not it will be satisfying or enough, I don't know, but again it's really all landing on the mythology this year, so hopefully that will pay off. But I hear you. I understand that.
MR: I know you can't speak to specifically what is coming up, but is this the season of Jax attempting to take control of his destiny? Is it a story of Jax and what kind of man he is going to choose to be?
KS: I think Jax is figuring out what kind of man he is going to be is really what the series is about, not necessarily a season. I think this season is really about him continuing to have things revealed to him. I try to write these episodes organically and have the situations unfold organically and have the reactions to those things be real. So yes, I want to have thematic arcs that play out, but I also want it to stay interesting and to stay real and to [evoke] human nature, which is, as human beings we change all the time.
To have his path be sort of rigid and have the arc be just one solid line is not interesting to me, but I do think it's about him continuing to learn about who his father was and perhaps the meaning behind the meaning in that journal. I've said this before, I think that ultimately John gets knocked off the pedestal a little bit as a result of [what happens this season]. There is some mythology that will be revealed that ultimately I hope will continue to push the series ahead. So that was the intent. But yeah, I know. I know people were pissed off about the baby going home with the adoptive parents.
I get it. I get it, and, look, I will tell you this much... I'm never gratuitous. I never put things in to sucker-punch people. Even some of the graphic stuff -- it's never about "How can I pull the rug out from you here?" Ultimately the arc of it will hopefully make sense. Now whether or not that is satisfying for people, I don't know. Whether or not people will embrace it or get it, I don't know, but it's never about "Let me throw in a twist, so it makes the ending [more exciting]" You know what I mean? That is not my intent.
MR: Right.
KS: It's really about the search for Abel and with each... as Jax gets closer, the path becomes more complicated and more is revealed.
Part 3: Getting the Sons to Belfast, and the Inevitable Trinity-Jax Question.
MR: Well, it sounds like you're aware that you have asked your audience for patience. Because I feel like, more than any other season, this is a season where I've been asked as a viewer to just get onboard and just wait for some answers that might not come until the end of the season.
There is a point that Alan Sepinwall raised in his 'Lochan Mor' review. He kind of crystallized in his review the idea that the Sons are in Belfast and essentially they are chess pieces or pawns in other people's games. Is there going to be a turning of the tide in terms of the Sons being able to take back the initiative, instead of being reactive? Will they go from kind of be reactive to proactive and take back the momentum?
KS: Yeah, here is what I'd say. First of all, I think they're incredibly proactive, meaning that yes, they're subject to the machinations of other people, but initially, we had to lay the track to them to get out [Charming]. There are people who are like, 'Well, why didn't they get out there sooner?' and in my mind the reality of getting them out there as quickly as we did was a stretch for me because really only about a week and a half had passed [since the abduction of Abel] and there are a lot of complications for these guys to actually jump ship and leave the country.
So to me their need to get this kid has been [paramount]. What they're doing is incredibly proactive. No other human beings would do what they're doing. If a kid was missing and the Feds weren't doing anything what would we do? We would go up and hang [expletive] posters up on trees. You know what I'm saying? So, to me, they are incredibly proactive.
And the point of this season, or some of the point for me, was the idea that these guys, when they get to Belfast, they're no longer in Charming. You know what I mean? They are they're little fish in a big pond and they're completely out of their depth. The point of 'Turas' with that explosion was like, "Holy [expletive], we're not [at home]. This is the level of violence we're stepping into. This is the world that we're living in now. We're not in Charming. We're not in control." To me, that was the point of all this that is going on.
Obviously they have to move forward to achieve their goals, but for Jax, it's about having him see firsthand the origins of where all this came from and the level of violence [and] where these guns originated. It was all about sort of picking up the carpet and looking underneath. Like these Irish guys are constantly saying, "You guys have no idea how good you have it in Charming. We're out here. This is the kind of violence we live with every day while you're in Mayberry."
So that was really the point of seeing that level of violence, and then ultimately yes, turning it on its head and getting some footing and hopefully having those turnabouts happen somewhat organically so it doesn't feel just like the heroes have to win. But that really is the point in [episodes] 8 and 9, for them to witness what it is like... to not have the cops in your pocket, to suddenly be subject to the whims of other people.
MR: This season has made me think about this whole idea of mothers and children. Is that going to become a factor in these next four episodes? Are the mothers -- Gemma, Maureen, Fiona -- on their own or banding together, are they going to take some sort of proactive steps? Or is that just one more element in play?
KS: There is not really a combined effort. I do think [there are] parallels between Maureen and Gemma and ultimately it's interesting having them sort of need each other. What happens with Gemma is, it's really about finding Abel. It's about bringing back the legacy. I think she becomes as desperate as Jax as all this moves forward, so I don't necessarily think it's a matter of getting to a breaking point as much as it is her fulfilling that role of being the maternal spine of the family and if need be, the club and she does that. There is a big scene in [episode] 11, where she ultimately has to be once again sort of the spine of the family.
MR: Jax won't sleep with his half sister, will he? Because, I mean, you have a sick sense of humor, but please don't do that.
KS: I don't want to give anything away.
MR: Of course you don't.
Part 4: The 'Two Towers' Season?
MR: Just kind of going back to a bigger picture, we talked a little bit about this at the start of the season, but now that I've actually seen I guess two-thirds of Season 3, was this particularly difficult for you to write or conceptualize? In my head, I keep calling season 3 the 'Two Towers' season. I don't know if you're a Tolkien fan, but it seems to me that the middle part of any saga seems to me to be the hardest part, just because there are many, many strands at that point, before you begin telescoping toward the end. Is that an inaccurate way to look at it?
KS: I guess so. Not to be vague, [but] I don't really think of it in terms of "This is the middle section." I do know this: Whether it will prove to be a good idea or a bad idea, I don't know, but I always knew from the beginning that the mythology of John Teller would be revealed through learning about the origins of the gun business. I knew I wanted to do something different and bring us into an interesting world, which is why we came up with the Real IRA connection and [went to] a version of Belfast, and through that season, we would dig deeper into the character of John Teller whom we only have met up until this point in the journal. I knew I wanted to do that from the jump, so I don't necessarily see it as the middle of it as much as I knew I wanted to start to reveal that. There is [also] the complicated web that Gemma and Clay have sort of woven -- we'll see the strands of that pulled at the end of the season.
So I guess in that case, yes, it's really the information we need to start to unravel [things] that will ultimately bring us to the end. I guess there would have been a way to get that information without perhaps going to Belfast, but I just thought I wanted to learn more about the history. I'm fascinated with the dead king and I wanted an opportunity to [look into that history.] I'm never going to do a flashback although I've did as close as I probably will ever do to a flashback in [episode 9, when Jax briefly sees John Teller's face after the bomb blast].
MR: I'm interested to see where it all goes, certainly. I just think this is me speaking purely selfishly -- I wanted your show to make me cry. I just want to have that moment where I'm completely carried away, when the story really makes me feel the character's pain and reality so much that I'm emotionally drawn in. I know that you don't want to do a repeat of that scene where Gemma tells Jax and Clay about the attack in season 2. You don't want to do that again, but do you think you're going to make me cry?
KS: God. Maybe. How about smile?
MR: You've made me smile this season, yeah. Not to worry there.
KS: Look, I absolutely hear that and I know it has been ambitious storytelling this year and perhaps there is a lot more narrative than there has been in previous seasons because we're learning so much about other people and there are big characters. I don't know. If I go back to my hokey Shakespearean analogy, it's Act 2, and there is a lot of information. There is a lot big mythology that has to come out before the final act, but I felt like if there was a time to do it, this really was the season to do it.
Look, I'm not immune to obviously to the reactions of people and I'm sure as I have in previous seasons, I'll learn from this season as an artist and a storyteller and take what works and be aware of what doesn't. But I really feel like, I had a vision for what this season was and what I wanted to accomplish, and I feel like creatively that I was able accomplish everything that I wanted to accomplish. I don't feel lacking.
Part 5: Mere Anarchy Is Loosed Upon the World: Hints about What's to Come
[From here on out there are very mild, vague spoilers about what's to come. Sutter mentions how many of the next four episodes will be set in Belfast.]
MR: My podcast co-conspirator Ryan McGee had an interesting theory about the season. I know you can't speak to specifics, but there is this whole idea of perhaps winning the battle in Belfast but losing the war in Charming, as it were. Things on that front seems to be going downhill pretty fast.
KS: I think for me Charming has always been another character in the show and [over the course of three seasons] we've seen the struggle in Charming get more and more complicated, and as violence continues to sort of bleed outside of the club doors into the town and continues to take its toll, it's really kind of reaching critical mass. It can't help but start to change things and I think it would be inorganic or just wrong to sort of pretend that it's not going to change the town, because I think it does. For me season 4 will really be about how do the Sons navigate if the rules change in Charming and that is where we're heading right now.
MR: I was very intrigued by the whole idea that properties are being bought up by some sort of business concern, and it made me think, maybe Hale is actually executing someone else's agenda or is part of a bigger picture. Is that bad speculation?
KS: No, no, I think we're laying track to that. [In the course of 'Turas,' Unser gets papers from the bank with the list of investors]. He gets the names and then we cut right to Hale -- I think the implication is that he is definitely part of it. [Sutter talks about how Hale, while on the city council, has been helping change the laws that will give the mayor's office much more power. His pitch is:] "I'm really doing what is good for Charming and expanding Charming and building homes and taking us into the 21st century," but in so doing, he's obviously lining his own pockets. It's really just a small-town version of the bigger political machine, but we're seeing how that impacts the lives of the people we've come to know.
MR: At the end of 'Turas,' Tara and her supervisor Margaret are in a world of trouble. Margaret started out being outright horrible to Tara and that lasted for some time. Do we find that she has warmed up to Tara because Margaret was actually associated with an MC at some point and she just wanted Tara to get away from that? Or has she become more accepting in general?
KS: My notion in expanding that was just [a point about] human nature. I think, for me, Margaret does see a lot of herself in Tara and not necessarily the good parts. Do you know what I mean? And I think that is the initial impulse is to sort of shut that down. Ultimately as Tara becomes more vulnerable and [as Margaret sees] the struggle that Tara has [endured, Margaret] realizes, perhaps there is an opening here.
Then in episode 10, she reveals some personal history [and] in my mind, it all makes sense. You sort of get why she initially was shutting her down and [you understand the] horrendous things that happened. You know no matter how pissed off you are at somebody, when they've witnessed what Tara witnessed, there has got to be some compassion, there has got to be a shift as a result of that. We'll see that relationship change and the difference between how Margaret handles it and how Tara handles it.
MR: Earlier today, I was re-watching 'Turas' and I just thought Titus Welliver just amazing in that scene in the kitchen with the women. I just thought about how I love the moments with the characters when I just get information about how they're feeling about things, whether it's Jimmy laughing at the women in this completely insane situation, or whether it's Chibs reacting and saying, "No, I'm going to stay, I'm not going to get my family out of here." I love the moments when I understand emotionally how the characters are reacting to these events that have kind of engulfed them.
KS: Right, right. I get that and I think the next two episodes in Ireland will be incredibly emotional, especially for Jax and [they are] really going to completely snap his head around 180 degrees. You know what I mean?
MR: Yeah. Definitely, this cast is so good that the more they can kind of stretch out and do their thing, the more happy I am as a viewer. It sounds like more of that is maybe coming.
KS: Yeah, yeah, I think so. The last two episodes are back in Charming, everything will come to a head there. It was really important to me to keep the world of Charming kind of alive [even with the club members in Belfast]. Also, last year, I felt like after episode 10, there was that little lull. I didn't want that to happen again. That is what I learned from last year. I really wanted to have [episodes] 12 and 13 have as much punch or more punch than the episodes that we did in Belfast. I feel like we achieved that.
Here's a more complete version of what Sutter said about Abel, with a possible mild spoiler regarding the adoption and whether the priest knew about it:
KS: Well, I don't want to spoil anything, but hopefully by the time it all plays out it will make sense, and it has not really been a twist in terms of -- that is really where he has been taking this kid all along. But I won't answer that because I think it's all going someplace and whether or not it will be satisfying or enough, I don't know, but again it's really all landing on the mythology this year, so hopefully that will pay off. But I hear you. I understand that.
A more complete version of the info about Barger's character, Lenny:
KS: His handle was Lenny the Pimp and he was part of the first nine and he was incarcerated... We actually talk about it in episode 12 -- [that Lenny] was incarcerated for allegedly killing three ATF men, so he is in for good. There is an Otto-Lenny scene that takes place in the finale, and we set it up actually in [episodes] 11 and 12. It's this one scene that takes place in the hospital infirmary. Somebody hooks up the meeting for them.
Follow @MoRyan on Twitter.
Tags: drama, fx, kurt sutter, Sonny Barger
